All posts by TheStranger-MarshalJimDuncan
Reading this thread I think I’m lucky I haven’t watched any Outlaw Garry videos. MrBossFTW is just clickbait nonsense where he reiterates the same point for ten minutes straight that could be more easily written in the description of his video.
Best thing to do is do yourself a favour and watch Strange Man or Fizhy, both of them tend to have decent videos that are actually interesting.
Absolutely Leon, I think Arthur would be sitting on his front porch with a loaded shotgun at hand when Ross turns up. The only way he helps Ross in the position of John would be if Ross was able to exploit him by capturing someone he cared about, the most likely candidate being Mary, though it’s possible Ross kidnapping Charlotte or Sadie might work but Arthur being Arthur he’s gonna respond violently to Ross nine times out of ten, even if Ross captured someone. It would be a lot of work for Ross to go to in finding someone he could use to exploit Arthur, the most likely scenario is he turns up at Arthur’s place with a firing squad and Arthur starts shooting.
We don’t see Abigail kill anyone first hand and we certainly aren’t made aware of her doing so (with the exception of Mr Milton himself - funny that in later years John chooses to go by that name). So to our best knowledge up to that point she hasn’t actually killed anyone. Certainly when she kills Milton it seems like it’s her first kill.
Thing is as said above she’s associated with a group of murderers and this is well known to the Pinkerton’s because they interact with her in a hostile manner when Hosea is captured. She was also witnessed by both Ross and Milton at the gang’s camp in Clemens Point. So Abigail is certainly an accessory to murder and can be charged and convicted of such. Of course Milton is ruthless and unafraid to twist the boundaries of the law in order to get what he wants. He could very easily fabricate a murder charge for Abigail that was linked to the bank robbery in Saint Denis since she was witnessed as being involved. Considering how violent the bothched robbery was ultimately, he could very easily draw a correlation between the number of casualties and Abigail’s presence to charge her with murder.
The evidence would indeed be circumstantial however it could not easily be proven that Abigail didn’t kill someone during the robbery and Milton would argue her presence at the scene as well as her history of fratinisation with known killers would be enough to fulfil her mental willingness to commit such a crime; he would also use her escape from capture against her playing it up as violent, he would find out which deceased lawmen personally interacted with her during those events and use that as an excuse to frame her for murder. He would be able to provide witnesses that could confirm there was interaction to support his claim.
Furthermore, considering his position he could bribe or threaten his underlings to provide false testimony against Abigail which, wouldn’t be questioned as Milton publicly would be seen as a capable lawman. I think he knows for a fact that Abigail wasn’t present during Cornwall’s murder as he spoke with the man mere moments before Dutch killed him and most likely heard the gunshots so it’s highly likely he was made aware of the shooters.
The General would be much harder to fabricate as it was a dispute between the rights of the Native people’s of the region and the American army so it would be a stretch to add Abigail to this scene especially considering it is only really Arthur and Charles that take part in many of the hostilities. Dutch does also but the only major assistance provided by the Van Der Linde gang is at the Cornwall Kerosene Oil and Tar Company drill site which Abigail is not a part of.
It’s easier to frame Abigail when he has witnesses present, so Saint Denis seems the best choice for Milton to fabricate charges. However his reasons for doing so are quite obviously simply to lure out the Van Der Linde gang. He by now knows John’s value in the gang (he perhaps would only be partly aware of the true situation from Micah) so he knows that if he captures Abigail then John’s gonna come for her and he also knows if John comes then Arthur will probably join him and so to then would Dutch or at least he hopes that will happen.
Although we know Micah’s ratting we don’t know to what extent he told Milton the full truth. Micah is an opportunist and seems to be convincing Dutch to engage in his more violent side for fun but then also enjoying the trust Dutch begins placing in him. I think it’s highly likely Micah is actually playing both sides. I think Micah would have told Milton that there was a little tension between John and Dutch to show that Milton’s work was paying off in causing the gang to fracture but he probably also said if you take Abigail then John will come after her, Arthur will come for John and Dutch will come for Arthur. So to Milton who would be feeling pressurised following the death of Cornwall since he had not only failed to bring Dutch to justice but allowed him to walk into town and murder Milton’s own benefactor would be attracting serious attention from his competitors both within the Pinkerton’s themselves and outside in other legal institutions and the public.
Milton when he took Abigail was desperate because he had failed. He threatens Abigail because he has to bring someone in but he hopes she’ll act simply as bait for a bigger fish. If she fails to lure John or Arthur in then he can play up her role in the Saint Denis bank robbery to make himself appear competent. He knows by capturing a member of Arthur’s stature within the gang he would receive a massive boost to his public image and most likely his funding as well; if he brings in Abigail on false charges and successfully gets a conviction, he can at least save face publicly and buy himself more time.
It would also, perhaps unknown to Milton, further drive a wedge between John and Dutch as Dutch simply wouldn’t care about Abigail being captured or convicted as he blames her for poisoning John’s mind against him. This in turn helps out Micah who would then provide further aid to Milton by pouring salt on the wound between John and Dutch to cause further friction in an attempt to drive away both John and Arthur whom Milton could them simply pick up in a manner similar to how Strauss was captured. Without a doubt John and Arthur would go after Abigail and likely have assistance from Sadie which Micah could then use to aid Milton in capturing them.
In capturing Abigail, Milton’s banking on Micah’s word being right, which it is, whilst Micah is hoping to remove both Arthur and John from the competition. Since John is gone, presumed captured or killed, it falls on Arthur. Milton sees an opportunity and captures Abigail. Arthur comes to save her and Milton ends up getting killed by Abigail when he attempts to murder Arthur himself perhaps both out of desperation for a result and simple hatred of Arthur for the trouble the gang has put him through in pursuit of Dutch.
Milton fails totally and Arthur and John both return to plague Micah, the latter eventually killing him. Ross assumes control of the Pinkerton’s and proves he is a far better leader than Milton by assaulting the gang’s hideout which both completely splits the gang (at least in the public’s view) and results in the death of Arthur Morgan, Dutch’s right hand man.
In one decisive move, Ross usurps his predecessor’s effectiveness in the public’s opinion, cementing his position as the person to eventually be put in charge of the Bureau of Investigation several years later simply by ordering a full scale assault on the gang’s hideout and seeing both Arthur killed and the gang totally destroyed. Dutch goes his separate way abandoning the rest of the gang, Micah also goes his own way, likely with Cleet and Joe and forms his own gang and it’s very possible Javier and Bill go off on their own with Javier eventually deciding to head back to Mexico and Bill deciding to form his own gang in New Austin.
Milton was desperate for a win at that point, his consistent failure to have any real measure of success was draining him. Cornwall was threatening to remove funding because he was failing to see enough results. Then Cornwall was murdered and Milton was in the town when it happened. Not only would Cornwall’s money cease, his reputation is severely damaged.
He could easily fabricate murder charges to threaten Abigail in the hope that it might draw another gang member in, which it does, because he now, more than ever, has to present a result that proves his capability in bringing in Van Der Linde himself. Milton has lost financial support and had his reputation tarnished publicly by Cornwall’s murder. To gain any of it back he has no choice but to deliver so he grasps at whatever he can get. The opportunity he gets is capturing Abigail and he once again fails.
It wouldn’t affect the story as played out that much but it would affect Arthur’s approach to the situations. Really Arthur doesn’t find out that he’s sick until after Guarma when the gang is hiding in Lakay and then quickly driven to Beaver’s Hollow. So it’s not a massive amount of time in the game that Arthur knows that he’s dying. It’s possible he suspects it, I mean on my first playthrough I really noticed his coughing towards the end of the Shady Belle chapter and I had the feeling that the persistent cough that was kicking up wasn’t going to be a minor thing. So it’s possible he started to suspect before his diagnosis but really he doesn’t fully know the truth until he passes out in Saint Denis and sees the doctor.
Well before this Arthur is seeing cracks form. He is well aware that both Hosea and John have concerns over Dutch’s stability and choices he’s been making and this goes back to before the Blackwater Massacre. In fact Hosea is very concerned by what happened in Blackwater not simply that they’re being hounded by lawmen constantly but Dutch’s handling of the event and his sudden reason for doing it in the first place, particularly when Hosea and Arthur had been setting up what could have been a very profitable though less violent swindle in the town.
Arthur is a confident for both Arthur and Hosea. When we begin the game Arthur is aware that some of Dutch’s recent decisions have been costly and not altogether like the old Dutch but he still has faith in his friend. He puts it down more to simple bad luck than anything major. Hosea who is far closer with Dutch than anyone else though feels it’s very out of character for Dutch and he shares this concern with both John and Arthur - the two people he trusts most aside from Dutch.
As it progresses Arthur does begin to see a degree of recklessness in Dutch’s actions. He tells the gang to lay low but then decides to rob a train owned by Leviticus Cornwall which leads to a shootout in Valentine and the gang fleeing to Rhodes. When they get to Rhodes Dutch thinks he’s struck gold and attempts to con the Gray’s and the Braithwaite’s out of their riches (which appear to be non existent). He thinks they are stupider than they look and seems to be oblivious to the fact that, the Grays in particular are probably suspicious of these new experienced gunslingers in their town, especially as they may have heard about the shootout in Valentine and they almost definitely would have heard about the shootout in Strawberry and the Blackwater Massacre.
As expected the Gray’s betray them as do the Braithwaite’s who kidnap Jack with the help of Angelo Bronte. Dutch then goes to demand the boys return but when finding out that Bronte has Jack in Saint Denis he burns down Catherine Braithwaite’s house after murdering her sons and lets her run in to die in the flames. Once in Saint Denis Arthur specifically is wary of Dutch’s sudden alliance with Bronte, particularly following what literally just happened with the Gray’s. Then there’s the trolley robbery which to Arthur was obviously a setup and the bank robbery which goes horribly horribly wrong.
On Guarma Dutch murders an old lady who aided them for no particular reason, claiming simply that she wanted more money for escorting them. Arthur at this point is already starting to believe that what Hosea and Dutch have been saying all along is true, though he doesn’t want to believe it entirely. Hosea’s death is the biggest impact on Dutch as Hosea is Dutch’s closest friend, they’re practically brothers and raised both Arthur and John. Hosea’s death sends Dutch’s bloodlust out of control as he not only wants to kill the people responsible but he wants to make them suffer. His violent nature starts to creep through more and more and without Hosea it’s left unchecked, which Micah then feeds on to encourage Dutch to indulge in this violence.
So well before Arthur gets his diagnosis he sees that Dutch is going crazy and he starts wondering whether Dutch was really just disguising this violence all along and playing them all for fools just so he could murder and steal and feel good about it. He starts seeing what Hosea and John say as truth. The thing is Arthur well before any of this accepts that the Old West is dying and he is goinna go with it. He remarks this to John in Valentine during Chapter 2 that the lawmen chasing them now is very different to how they’ve been chased in the past. He knows that the Pinkerton’s are far more organised and they are relentless in their pursuit. Arthur knows the Old West is on it’s way out and he knows he can’t personally adapt to the ‘civilised’ way of life.
If Arthur remained healthy, the gang still would have fallen apart. Dutch was starting to ‘go crazy’ before the Blackwater Massacre and the Pinkerton’s were relentlessly pursuing in a manner Dutch was unfamiliar. By Beaver’s Hollow Dutch is panicking because everything he’s tried to do has been thwarted by Milton. He’s a drowning man and at every opportunity he’s looking for a way to pull everyone else around him down with him. Dutch fully knows Milton is after Dutch specifically. The rest of the gang are merely collateral damage as far as Milton is concerned. Dutch however perhaps still believes some of his own idealism and doesn’t want to lose the people following him so when they start leaving he calls them traitors. He blames John for this largely because John is the only one voicing concern that Dutch believes is coming from Abigail distrusting him. Dutch then mistrusts Arthur because he thinks John has gotten into his head and so he feels he can only trust Micah.
So largely the events play out the same, the only thing different would be Arthur would not be so desperate to do something good before he dies as he wouldn’t know if he’d die or not. He’d still try and help the gang members that wanted to leave to do so. He could see how lost Dutch had become and that his path could only lead to self destruction. He’d argue much more with Dutch and Micah. He’d try to help Eagle Flies despite Dutch’s use of him and the other Native people’s. I think Arthur would still turn to Rains Fall, Sadie, Charles, John and Abigail as confidants and try to help them as best he could. He’d still bid farewell to Trelawney, Swanson and the girls.
He’d still get fed up with Strauss and throw him out, more for his own good than anything else and he’d still oppose Molly being killed. He would be left behind by Dutch at the Kerosene Company and he would rescue John from Sisika with Sadie. He’d help Sadie gain revenge on the O’Driscolls and he’d safe Abigail from Milton only this time I don’t think Milton would have overpowered Arthur and it’s likely Arthur would have questioned him and killed him or let Abigail shoot him.
He'd still confront Dutch after the train robbery and he’d side with John. The Pinkerton’s would attack and he’d flee with John. I think at this point it’s interesting as sick Arthur doesn’t have any care really for the money cause he knows he’s dying so aiding John is the obvious choice for sick Arthur but healthy Arthur I think has a harder choice. I think ultimately he would prioritise helping John but he’d intend to return for the money afterwards.
John escapes with Arthur’s help as Arthur draws the Pinkerton’s up the mountain by Beaver’s Hollow. He is confronted by Micah. In this instance whilst Micah probably still surprises him, Arthur is not so sluggish. Whilst he’d still be exhausted from the train robbery he’d be able to hold his own far more easily against Micah. I think the fight ends with either Arthur beating Micah to death or throwing him off the cliff following the last confrontation with Dutch. Either way Arthur would have killed Micah.
The aftermath would be very interesting as it would only be Dutch who could stop Arthur killing Micah but as Dutch walks away as he does anyway you’re then left with John living as ranch hand Jim Milton, Sadie bounty hunting and Charles ending up in bare knuckle boxing matches in Saint Denis. I think Arthur would have probably gone his separate way. Left the gang behind him and maybe attempted to live a more relaxing life, possibly with Charlotte Balfour given the frontier lifestyle.
I think Arthur would probably do something like that, try and be a bit more like John but I think he would be aware that the Pinkerton’s and later the Bureau would come for him and I think he’d probably be waiting for it. With Micah dead John’s trail isn’t easily picked up by Ross and so neither are Sadie and Charles. Arthur would be hunted in the Roanoke Ridge so perhaps him settling with Charlotte isn’t his first call but he’s not much for living in the towns or cities, he only goes when he has to and if he becomes a frontiersman he’d go in to sell pelts and buy supplies so he’d be noticed. After that it’s only a matter of time before Ross gets wind of it. Given Arthur’s position in the gang he’s a much more valuable target than John or Charles, Bill or Javier. If they can’t find Dutch, they’ll go after Arthur and it’s possible Arthur ends up filling John’s role in Redemption 1.
I think Arthur would have a few more years of peace had he lived but ultimately the Bureau would come for him and he’d be more than happy to make his end a violent one.
I actually don’t hate Micah. Yes he’s evil and we don’t like him because of his role in the story; but, he’s a good villain. He adds a great moral quandary for Arthur in the game who is tougher, equally dangerous but not as callous or devoid of emotion. So I don’t hate Micah, even if every time I play American Venom I do so just to see Micah die. It’s also a great mission.
The only gang member that I strongly dislike because I don’t really hate any of them specifically is Strauss. He just irritates me, half the time when doing his missions I’m thinking why didn’t you come and collect yourself you useless strip of piss or at least words to that effect. He doesn’t really do much for the gang. He keeps the books but pretty much all the money he ‘brings in’ is done so by other gang members, mainly Arthur.
He is partially responsible for Arthur’s death as he doesn’t give him advanced warning of Thomas Downes’ condition and he’s just a parasite that lives off the gang, once cast off he’s as good as dead.
The only thing that stops me outright hating him is that he is quite pitiful, particularly at the end when Arthur throws him out. He’s irritating absolutely and it’s best he keeps his distance from the gang when he’s at camp but throwing him out in the manner Arthur does was a little cold but at the same time he probably should have took himself off long before then. He also gets picked up, tortured and murdered by Pinkerton’s without saying a word about the gang so he earnt some of my respect for that but still he irritates me.
If it’s a straight up 1 vs 1 then my money’s on Micah. Even though he’s a complete ass he was a considerable help in the Rhodes and Strawberry shootouts despite being the cause of the latter. He’s cunning and ruthless and unafraid of taking whatever avenue he can to take advantage. I mean he waited until Arthur was practically dead before taking him on which shows that when it comes to killing he’s pretty smart and calculated. Even John feels at a loss in their final confrontation on Mt Hagen when Micah takes Sadie hostage, before Dutch appears I’m pretty sure both John and Sadie know that whatever John decides, Sadie’s dead. When Dutch shoots him it seems to only fuel Micah into a bloodthirsty rage as he immediately attempts to shoot John and if you aren’t quick on the draw he will take you down surprisingly quickly.
Ross on the other hand well we get the impression that in 1914 he is a decent shot, well decent enough to take on Jack (whose been training for 3 years religiously in using weapons) and a few ducks. Now the problem with Ross is we barely ever see him fight. He often tends to use whatever resources are available to him instead and then merely take the glory for it, after all it looks better in the reports. The little we know outside of ‘Remember my Family’ suggest that Ross isn’t overly bothered about using weapons himself but being first a Pinkerton and then the head of the Bureau he would certainly be trained in their use.
I could see Ross perhaps being a little similar to Milton in combat, even though we don’t see Milton in many fighting scenarios, he does overpower, an admittedly weakened, Arthur and almost kill him. I could see Ross having received similar training but being less ruthless in a physical manner. Ross is as ruthless as Milton but he uses other resources to do so whereas Milton we see actively doing such.
So when it comes down to a 1 vs 1 then I think Micah has the edge over Ross. Ross could surprise Micah as we aren’t completely sure how capable he is but Micah is a born killer. He doesn’t care how Ross dies so long as he dies. The only person I think Micah has ever being cautious to fight is Arthur because healthy Arthur could easily overpower Micah (pretty much the reason the start of the game sees Micah trying to cosy up to Arthur and show him that he ain’t all bad). Even sick Arthur gives Micah a run for his money. But to Micah someone like Ross is nothing, he may carry a gun but that pampered lifestyle he enjoys makes him numb to the harshness of the world. Micah is that harshness, his father was a murderer and his grandfather before that most likely the same.
He comes from a history of violence where killing is as easy as breathing. He’s a capable duellist and his disregard for the response of the Strawberry law as he shoots up a town indicate it’s not his first time doing such a thing. He’s cunning and will exploit every opportunity. Ross despite his training isn’t going to be in a good position taking Micah on.
If the fight is allowed planning time ahead of it then Ross wins.
The simple reason, before Micah even gets a chance to aim his sights on Micah he’s gonna be in a duel with John, if he kills John, which in itself isn’t an easy task he’s then gonna be met with a wall of guns from the American army. It’s pretty safe to say with planning prior to a confrontation, Micah gets gunned down in a similar way to John and Ross simply walks over and puts a bullet in Micah’s corpse for the reports.
When it comes to who’s more evil well it’s undoubtedly Micah. Ross does have one redeeming factor in that he was in service of upholding the law, even if his reasons for doing so weren’t necessarily about doing so. He mercilessly tracks down the Van Der Linde gang long after it’s disbanded and kills every member of it with the exception of Abigail and Jack. While to us the audience, knowing Arthur and John’s stories, this seems pretty evil. But to the civilians in the game who only see the violence of the gang, well they see them as murderous, violent criminals that have to be stopped.
Think of John Dillinger and his gang. When we hear the story of John Dillinger we get drawn in and we think these guys aren’t so bad, yes he’s a bank robber but there’s a romanticism of the story to make it seem like he was more of a Robin Hood than a Ted Bundy. When we see or hear that sort of story we tend to overlook the more violent elements. John Dillinger was a bank robber, he was charismatic as a leader but he also employed highly volatile and dangerous people in his operation such as Baby Face Nelson. If we know Dillinger’s story we can become sympathetic towards him if we are presented it ina commendable manner. He was just a guy trying to survive. If you look at his crimes, he may not have been the most violent member but he didn’t have any specific qualms about it as he employed those more dangerous people on more than one occasion.
Apply that to Red Dead, well to the public John Marston and Arthur Morgan participated in numerous robberies, the majority of which ended violently, They extorted people, killed people, cause terror and destruction wherever they went. In the civilians mind Ross is a hero for not giving up his hunt to finish off the Van Der Linde gang once and for all, which he actually fails to do since the last member, Jack, murders him in Mexico.
Ross is a self serving, loathsome parasite but he is working to bring murderers to justice.
Micah on the other hand is the irredeemable psychopath. He enjoys killing and he’s gonna keep on doing it. He doesn’t care who sees him do it. He just does it. He ends up in the Strawberry jail for killing a guy in a saloon which almost gets Lenny lynched. He murders Jack’s dog and terrorises the boy, implying he might even ‘get rid of’ Jack to solve the problem with John. He’s murdered lawmen, innocent townsfolk and children all without a single care. He has a wanted poster for Dutch at his camp away from Horseshoe Overlook indicating should the circumstance arise, he’ll cash in on that to save himself, which he sort of does when turning rat for Milton.
Ross has a redeemable quality in that he’s a lawman seeking to stop murderers. Micah has no redeemable quality, he just wants to kill and keep killing till all the killing’s done and then he’ll kill some more. It doesn’t even seem like Micah actually cares all that much about money or authority, all he seems to care about is dominating people, whether it’s through ordering them about or putting a bullet through their skull. He is quite simply a psychopath.
Well in Redemption 1 I loved Armadillo, literally spent all my end game time there. I was really disappointed when I went there with John in Redemption 2 to find it practically empty except for the dying and that parasite Herbert Moon. Even though the Strange Man Easter Egg is cool in his shop, it was a big let down in Redemption 2 for me. Now I just want an updated and remastered Redemption 1 with the functional multiplayer as well.
In Redemption 2 I would probably say Valentine as it’s the closest I can get to Armadillo in Redemption 1. I prefer the more frontier town places which have much more of the Old West feel to them. I also like Blackwater in both games.
Saint Denis I’m not a huge fan of. I much prefer the areas around it like Lakay and Lagras. Rhodes is alright but I only really go there to terrorise Pearson. Tumbleweed I like mainly as it’s a cool thing to have in the game, seeing it before it became abandoned, plus its a good base for when your in New Austin. The only thing I don’t like about it is that you can’t access the mansion and explore the mysteries surrounding it more. I would have loved Colter to have been populated to have a town in the snowy region of the map as well.
So yeah my absolute favourite is Armadillo (Redemption 1) but my favourite in Redemption 2 is Valentine.
There’s always an element of truth in every story.
When it comes to Revolver it’s very simple. The story as depicted in Red Dead Revolver is not a part of Redemption’s timeline. That being said, it doesn’t make it entirely false. If you play Revolver you’ll immediately notice that it is a lot more fantastical than the Redemption game’s and so if events that occur in Revolver happened in Redemption’s narrative, they almost absolutely didn’t occur in that manner.
Whilst it is easy to dismiss as complete fiction within Redemption and use the unreliable narrator as a means to brush it off, that doesn’t make it so. In both Redemption game’s we do have the camp fire tales. Now yes absolutely if one or two of the folks we encounter at the camps were only mentioning it then there’s more ground for it being entirely false but I don’t find that, at least in what encounters I’ve seen in game.
When listening to these encounters we get the impression that though one character is saying this, all present seem to accept what they are saying as being truthful to a degree. That includes the protagonist we are playing as. If someone doubted its legitimacy strongly enough then they would voice it and if R* really wanted to strongly stamp out any connection then either John or Arthur would have something to say about it.
We had some real world legends and myths mentioned, King Arthur is indeed a legend however it isn’t as clear cut as saying he was based on other people. Whilst this of course is likely it doesn’t mean it is entirely accurate. You will find many students of the legendarium consider that whilst the legend itself is possibly comprised of the deeds of various individuals, they believe that an actual King Arthur did exist, just not to the extent as is told in the legend of King Arthur. On the other hand many others believe he is actually based on Alfred the Great or possibly Alfred’s father or grandfather and so was a real figure but his deeds and story was embellished greatly and so the legen was born.
Furthermore the siege of Troy was discovered to be fact after archaeological remains of the city were discovered in the region it was said to have been by Homer. It is also known that Homer’s Iliad is an epic poem and so of course embellishes aspects. We see the Greeks as heroes who were betrayed by the Trojans because of the Iliad and it was all because the Trojan prince Paris ran off with the King of Sparta’s wife. The sacking of Troy probably didn’t occur for that reason. Maybe it did happen but considering the King of Sparta is a general within the attacking Greek force in the Iliad and not it’s sole leader it’s quite possible that if such a thing happened then the King of Sparta joined the assault driven by a personal grievance but the assault itself was driven by something far greater such as territorial expansion, gold, whatever. Did the Greeks use trickery and deceit to sack the city, most likely. In war you use whatever advantages you can to damage your enemy. Does that mean they used the wooden horse? Not necessarily. It could be that the wooden horse was merely a metaphor for the Greeks using cunning and trickery to access the city. Then again there may have been a wooden horse used but it’s purpose may also have been entirely different. We cannot know as our only evidence for the sacking of Troy are the archaeological finds and the Iliad. We cannot say with absolute certainty which elements of Homer’s work are embellished. You may say that Achilles wasn’t a Demi-God that was an all powerful warrior with the blood of Zeus coursing through his veins but you cannot say for sure that Achilles wasn’t simply a highly experienced and capable warrior who had proven his effectiveness and deadly abilities in countless wars before Troy.
In relation to that you could also examine Tennyson’s ‘The Charge of the Light Brigade’ which was written about the event that occurred during the Battle of Balaclava during the Crimean War. Tennyson’s work is indeed poetry and an embellishment of fact but when you look at the historical facts themselves it is not really an embellishment. It champions the common soldier, something unheard of in the time it was written and thus influenced change. When the battles reports came back there was a great deal of support for the common soldiers who had fallen in the battle and they were hailed as heroes over the officers they followed. What I mean by this is that whilst there maybe fantastical elements present as with the Iliad or the legend of King Arthur, it doesn’t discount the validity of truth within them.
Circling back to Revolver then. I agree with Equivalent that elements of Revolver’s story do happen in the Redemption story. Places such as Brimstone are accepted as real places. Twin Rocks does indeed appear in Revolver, now I know it’s supposed to be unconnected to the place we are familiar with in New Austin but; since Revolver’s story is an embellishment, it could be equally likely that the Twin Rocks in Revolver is indeed the same Twin Rocks as seen in Redemption but as Revolver’s story is more of a legend, certain liberties have been taken in the retelling of it.
Characters like Red, Diego and Shadow Wolf are considered to be real people in these campfire tales. The duelling competition Red participates in is talked about as an actual event that occurred. I think that when it comes to Revolver the general story about Red Harlow being witness to the murder of his father and pursuing the path of vengeance to avenge them is true in Redemption’s story. Red was a bounty hunter, a very real profession and so he would have developed the skills necessary to survive the lawlessness of the Old West. It’s very likely he went to Brimstone and it’s very likely he took his revenge for his fathers murders. It is however not likely to have been in the way we saw in Revolver.
I personally if R* make another Red Dead game would love to see a story based on Red set after Brimstone. We could then get a bit of light shed on what the Redemption narrative of those events actually were but also see the rest of Red’s story. It would be set much earlier than the Redemption arc but you never know maybe Red crossed paths with Hosea or Dutch when they were far younger. Maybe he even met Landon Ricketts and gave him a few pointers. We don’t know but I think it’s likely Red could have operated in the New Austin and Nuevo Paradiso territotories and possibly in the area north of New Austin, maybe Brimstone is located there. As fun as it would be to play a younger Arthur or a Hosea or Dutch in their prime, I personally would like to see how Red Harlow fits in.
I played both Redemption game’s entire stories with high honour. Left all the despicable things till afterwards.
If Micah died in Strawberry more of the townsfolk would be alive. Arthur would report to Dutch but the level of attention he attracted in Strawberry would draw the Pinkerton’s. Pretty much none of the gang would care except Dutch but things in Chapter 2 would likely play out the same. Dutch and Arthur would go to Valentine and Cornwall would confront them forcing a shootout which causes the gang to flee further east. Dutch wouldn’t bother sending anyone to recover Micah’s corpse as the area would be crawling with Pinkerton’s who would have already removed it.
Chapter 3 would go pretty similarly up to Sean’s death. Bill would have a harder time convincing Arthur to meet with Sheriff Gray and it’s possible either Dutch would order Arthur to go or Arthur would tell Bill to go himself and talk some other fool into joining him. I think Sean still dies in the ambush regardless as he was more than happy to go with Bill. If Arthur went then he and Bill would have a more difficult time escaping the shootout that followed.
Jack would have been kidnapped, the gang would pursue. Dutch would do the trolley heist and the bank robbery. Hosea and Lenny would be killed. Whilst fleeing Saint Denis the gang would end up on Guarma. Those events would go the same way more or less. They’d return and join the rest of the gang in Lakay. At this point things may have looked up a little as, although Bill is blamed for leading Milton to the gangs location we know Micah was ratting on the gang after being picked up.
It’s most likely Milton followed Micah and waited for all the members to turn up. In this instance, they wouldn’t have a rat to lead them to the gang’s location so they would be able to lay low for a time at Lakay. Arthur would have been diagnosed with tuberculosis. Angelo Bronte would have been killed in much the same way.
This is where it would alter as with the gang in Lakay they would be able to plan a better escape strategy and properly deal with the deaths of Lenny and Hosea. Dutch would still be out for blood but without Micah feeding his sadistic desires, he would find it far more difficult to do many of the things he does in Chapter 6. His closest confidant would be Arthur who would be able to ease him somewhat in regards to John and seeing people as ‘betraying’ him. He would also be able to talk Dutch into letting him and Sadie break John out of Sisika, perhaps even getting a few more gang members to join them.
The gang would have probably been discovered at Lakay sometime later and fled to Beaver’s Hollow. Cornwall would have been and gone by the time the gang arrives so Dutch wouldn’t have gone after him. They would be able to lay low again; with the Pinkerton’s now largely in Lemoyne they would have a better chance of fleeing west again for the Blackwater money or going north as Dutch seemed to indicate.
Dutch would have become more and more paranoid as he does anyway as part of his madness came from knowing the Pinkerton’s were almost on top of them. Many of the gang would have been feeling the same and left as they did anyway, seeing Dutch’s paranoia as him falling into madness. Around this time John would have called Dutch out and announced that he was leaving with Jack and Abigail. This would have led to a confrontation between Dutch and John. We probably would have discovered Dutch’s real feelings over John leaving once before at this point. Arthur would have stepped in to try and convince Dutch to let John walk away. Dutch would probably have then called Arthur a traitor for siding with John and forcing the other remaining members to pick a side.
It would have largely played out as it did though we would have had some of Arthur’s allies still present (i.e. Sadie and Abigail). This time however Susan wouldn’t have been shot and Arthur may have been able to get through to Dutch to let John walk away. Arthur also probably wouldn’t have drawn his gun against Dutch in this confrontation, so convincing Dutch he was still on his side would have been easier. Dutch would have relented through Arthur and Susan’s appeasing and lowered his gun. Arthur would have strong armed John away from the camp and told him to take Abigail and Jack and get out while he had a chance.
John would have told Arthur to come with him but Arthur would have refused saying he still had people to look after in the gang. With John gone, Dutch would be harder to control. He would have seen John having successfully betrayed him and convinced half of the gang to betray him as well. Because Arthur stood in defence of John, Dutch would no longer trust him or confide with him and he would become more reckless as he does in the game’s actual events. He would force the gang to join in Eagle Flies’ assault on the Kerosene Oil and Tar company and he would have attempted to leave Arthur to die because of John. After Arthur was saved by Eagle Flies he would confront Dutch who would callously wave it off.
Dutch would then plan the train heist while Arthur and Sadie dealt with the O’Driscoll’s that murdered Jake Adler. At this point Arthur would have told Sadie (his only remaining ally) to go. She would have argued but Arthur would have gotten her to see sense. She, like John, would have asked Arthur to come away but he would have refused. Arthur would have returned to the camp and joined Dutch in robbing the train.
The robbery would go largely to plan but returning to camp Arthur would have pressed Dutch into leaving with the Pinkerton’s likely following their trail. Dutch would have gotten into a heated argument with Arthur over Arthur’s decision to side with John and the Pinkerton’s would have attacked the camp. In the ensuing firefight Arthur would have fled in a similar manner as the game’s events but would have gone to see if what Abigail told him about the Blackwater money was true.
He would have found Dutch’s chest with the money and Dutch would confront him once more. Dutch would have lost his mind to the point that he assumes Arthur deliberately aided John’s break up of the Van Der Linde gang so he could steal the money from Dutch. Arthur would again try a last attempt at reason but the two would end up fighting each other. Arthur would gain an upper hand and attempt to flee leaving Dutch with the money. Dutch would have scolded Arthur for his ‘betrayal’ as he left. Leaving the cave via the other entry point as in the game, Arthur would have to fight his way through Pinkerton’s.
Realising he was cut off, he’d flee up the mountain where his tuberculosis would overcome him due to exhaustion from the train heist, confrontation with Dutch and the Pinkerton attack. Arthur would probably sit down by a rock to watch the sunrise as he passed away. This is where Milton and Ross would discover him but would simply check Arthur’s name off their list and move on to find Dutch, who would have vanished as in the game.
John would live as Jim Milton for a time and build his ranch at Beecher’s Hope, meeting up with Uncle, Charles and Sadie. Sadie would reveal that she went back to Beaver’s Hollow and found Arthur’s body which she buried. With no Micah, John would not be discovered by Ross and Fordham. Dutch would also remain unseen for years. John would take up bounty hunting jobs as well as other work to pay off his debt to the bank.
More likely he would have sided with Arthur had he survived that long and stayed. Arthur was someone Kieran wanted to earn the respect of. While Dutch let’s him stay with the gang he doesn’t care whether Kieran lives or dies and mainly ignores him for the most part. Arthur though initially just as distrustful as Dutch warms to him a little after Kieran saves his life.
If anything though, Kieran would have probably left with Mary-Beth if he’d lived. Whilst he had his moments he wasn’t much of a fighter and he seemed to desire a gentler lifestyle (probably why he wanted to stay, hearing Dutch go on about Tahiti).
As for the others who died. Jenny, Mac and Davey we can’t say. All we know is Lenny was sweet on Jenny, if that had developed then she may have stood with Lenny or had him stand with her. The brothers were mentioned to be quite a violent pair so it’s possible they would have chosen to stick with Dutch. But as I said we know virtually nothing about them so we can’t say either way. Lenny, absolutely would have stood with Arthur, no question.
Hosea was the only thing stopping the gang from ending up as it did. If he lived I think we would have more than likely seen Dutch against Hosea instead of Dutch against Arthur. Hosea was the one who shared his concern about Dutch with John, which led to John being viewed as the person in the gang trying to drive everyone away from Dutch. It’s more likely John and Arthur would have sided with Hosea than Hosea picking a side himself.
Sean is perhaps the hardest to place as he was considered by Dutch to be a third son of sorts and Arthur who viewed John as a brother also saw Sean as being a younger brother so it’s likely Sean would have sided with Arthur but at the same time he would consider Dutch a father so could just as easily side with him. Thing is Sean wasn’t much for internal conflict, before his death we see he finds the bickering between Arthur and Micah pointless and irritating. His jovial nature and tendency to make light of things would be misplaced in the gang by the time of Beaver’s Hollow. I think he would be swayed by whatever Karen was doing. Karen I think if she remained sober or rather drank less than she ends up drinking would have gotten fed up and left with Mary-Beth and Tilly. She probably would have dragged Sean with her and I don’t think he would have protested much about staying to support either Dutch or Arthur. He probably would have just wanted to get out and Arthur would have respected that. After all John just wanted to get out as did most at that point. Only with John, Dutch wanted to kill him for doubting him and ‘betraying’ him which Arthur knew and decided to help John escape before he died.
I take your point that when it comes to historical accuracy the racism depicted is rather tame particularly in the depictions of the Southern US however I wouldn’t say it was underrepresented.
I agree that the perspective we play the story from has a minor effect on the portrayal of racism in the late 19th and early 20th Century America in that being a caucasian character does not make us suddenly immune to the outside world.
America at the time was deeply racist, the mere fact that the Lemoyne Raiders are a faction in game tells you that a lot of the people haven’t forgotten the American Civil War and there is a stronger focus on the Confederacy in game due to location. If we think back to the mission with Lenny at the bar in Valentine you’ll notice Arthur and Lenny have a great time and begin to develop a strong bond of friendship.
If this was historically accurate, Arthur fraternising with an African American man in a friendly manner would not go unnoticed. In fact it would highly likely result in a patron of the saloon taking offence to Lenny’s presence and Arthur’s acceptance of Lenny as an equal. Whilst Lenny would be in a far more dangerous position than Arthur it would not absolve Arthur from insult. He would likely receive a certain amount of abuse from the Valentine residents because of his fraternisation with Lenny alone.
New Hannover is also perhaps not as bad as Lemoyne or even New Austin and West Elizabeth. If Arthur and Lenny went to the bar in Rhodes the entire gang would have likely been run out of town by the Gray’s for merely fraternising with non caucasian American folk and Lenny could have very likely been lynched and Arthur beaten.
In fact the presence of the doctor we aid in Rhodes is a suspension of historical accuracy. Whilst it wouldn’t be completely unheard of for an African American man to achieve such a position in America (the Sheriff in Tumbleweed is indeed based off a real historical figure who attained what would be considered quite a senior role in an Old West town), in the South where Rhodes is set the likelihood of that doctor surviving is not great. Most of the people of that area would have supported the Confederacy and whilst not all would necessarily be racist, the KKK developed a great deal of support in the South. If you see the film ‘The Birth of a Nation’ you will see just how much they glorified the Klan at that time, though be warned that film is a very hard watch because of the racism within it. It would be more likely than not that the doctor we help in game in reality would have been lynched and robbed on the road whether by the Klan or people from Rhodes who objected to the position he had achieved in society. It’s a cruel fact and if I’ve upset anyone then I’m sorry though such an event would be rather common in a place like Lemoyne.
Having said that, this game was not marketed as being historically accurate. At no point did I see Rockstar announce their intention to make Red Dead Redemption 2 a completely historically accurate piece of work. They intended to expand upon their own open world formula and build upon it to make the game world feel more alive, more real but Rockstar have always been a company that use parody and satire to tell their stories. The story itself is the major focus, not the historical time period.
When it comes to creating a story in any medium the fundamental rule is that everything within must serve the story being told. Arthur is the focal point, we are seeing his story and later John’s. In Arthur’s story we aren’t expecting to see racism because his story isn’t about that. Unlike Mafia III where racism plays a major factor both in how the protagonist is treated but also in kickstarting the main elements of the story in the opening act. Sal Marcano sees the African American gangs as vermin that have expended their usefulness, he also employs deeply racist and conservative people in his operations so in that game we are expecting racism to be a major element of the game.
Furthermore Red Dead Redemption 2 is more a love letter to the Western genre of cinema like its two predecessors with its missions being inspired by many many films. It is a romanticism of the Old West and an embellished story where reality is suspended. After all every villain is the hero of their own story and we begin the game believing in Dutch’s ideals, that he is a force for freedom and liberty but as time goes on we see him more and more as the murderous sadist he is. The veil is lifted for Arthur but also the viewer. As the gang falls apart the situation becomes more ugly but rather than seeing the ugliness of the stories world in more detail we instead see the ugliness in the characters around Arthur. It is still however suspending reality for the sake of a good story.
No doubt had Rockstar made a completely historically accurate game, a large portion of players likely wouldn’t want to play it. So yes the depiction of racism in game is tamer than the reality but it isn’t absent. We see racism within the first minutes of the story in how Micah refers to several gang members. Lenny informs us of several instances where he was victimised though it is more apparent when seeing Javier and Charles. A fair few interactions we see between Javier and members in the gang or people during missions refer to Javier in a derogatory manner. Just replay the river boat robbery in Saint Denis and you’ll see his interaction with the security whilst disguised as one. Micah regular insults him and is at one point almost killed by Javier and that’s outside of any mission or cutscene.
Charles is perhaps given the most attention in this regard however but this is largely due to the infringement of the rights of the Native people’s in the area the game occurs which goes on to become a major focal point for the story. Arthur sees a kinship in Rains Fall’s struggle against the American military as does Charles but then Dutch sees it as an opportunity to exploit to get some more money.
We have random encounters in game that deal with racism, the recruiter in Saint Denis, the Klansman in the woods at night. The Lemoyne Raiders.
It is a present theme but as the story is not about that specific theme, at least until later on where it then specifically revolves around the Native people’s and Dutch exploiting them, it is not depicted in the real manner to which it occurred. Why? Because it doesn’t inform Arthur’s story and it’s that story we are playing. We are playing a story about a group of outcasts branded criminals and simply trying to survive against an unstoppable monster called ‘civilisation.’ Yes racism is present as a theme but it isn’t the driving theme of this story. If we played as Lenny or Charles then it would have a far stronger impact on the story but we are playing Arthur’s story instead and his story is about seeing the people he cares for most fall apart.