The whole thing seems to be a contradiction. John mentions that his father was blinded, which was allegedly happened in a bar fight south of Chicago, meaning that John knew him and interacted with him after said bar fight. However, on another occasion, he states that he doesn’t know how his father died, adding that he was informed that it was in the bar fight, which wouldn’t make sense as John says that he knew him afterwards.
I’m not sure what to make of it all. One solution would be to word it neutrally and then have a reference explaining this discrepancy. Aside from that, it’s just speculation. Was John informed incorrectly? Did John hear about him being blinded before dying at some point afterwards? Neither of these make much sense. I would be interested in hearing your opinion on this.
Honestly this sounds like a mistake on Rockstar's part with the script of Red Dead Redemption. We'll never know for sure. But yeah, it doesn't make much sense.
You've got two possible explantions that John gives.
1. John mentions that his father was blinded in a barfight then died later.
2. John tells Jack that his father died in a barfight or "at least that's what they told me"
That last part is intresting. The "at least that's what they told me" part. John doesn't sound very sure of himself. He doesn't have a lot of confidence in what happened with the death of his father. Not only in the tone of this voice but also in his words. Likeiwse, earlier John states his father being blind as a matter of fact. When he tells Bonnie that his father went blind and died later. He's speaking with clear confidence with what he's saying.
To me, this seems to imply that John's father being blinded at a bar and then later being killed at a bar are two different incidents. If they were intended to be the same incident. Then it would not make any sense as to why John would remember his father being blinded in the barfight, but very obviously not be aware of the fact that his father died because of the same fight. To say that John’s father was blinded also implies that he lived without his sight for a time, and this connects with John saying that his father died “later”
As vague as all of this is, and as much as I hate speculation. When you logically break all of this down. To me, the only plausible explanation is that John’s father was blinded in a barfight and then died afterward in a separate incident. But we should also note that in the incident where John’s father died, it is left very vague and that John was only told that his father died in a barfight after the fact.
Perhaps we should also leave a note in the references table that says something along the lines of “The exact circumstances behind the death of John’s father are not entirely known. John Marston himself refers to his father being blinded in a barfight and being killed in a barfight as two separate incidents. Regarding the death of his father, John has no first hand knowledge of the incident and was only told what happened afterward.”
For the past two months, I have been investigating the Blackwater Massacre. Since June 2013, the page has stated that 37 men died during the incident, 22 outlaws and 15 lawmen. I asked around the wiki for the source of the death toll and never got a clear answer. So I then took it upon myself to remove the part about the death toll. However, I wasn't just gonna write off the massacre's death toll as being made up bunk, so I kept thinking where the death toll might be stated. I thought either NPC dialogue or in the Game of the Year Guide.
I saw that in the Dutch page you used the GOTY game guide to figure out his age. I assume that since the guide has bios for every major character, including Landon Ricketts. I thought maybe it's stated in his bio or somewhere else in the book what the death toll was. If you have the guide, could you tell me if it ever states what the body count was?
I do not have the GOTY guide myself. Going off my own memory, If my memory is correct, I believe the "37 men died during the incident, 22 outlaws and 15 lawmen." Came from a newspaper in the original Red Dead Redemption. While I do not have the guide myself, I can tell you that over the years I have spoke to people on this wiki who have had it, and to my knowledge it never elaborates on the Blackwater Massacre.
Thanks for replying to my message, even if it's four months overdue.
The body count was never specified in either game. The newspapers from the first game never mention the body count of the massacre. The only place I could think of where the body count could potentially be mentioned is NPC dialogue.
Now about the Game Of The Year Guide. Recently, I have read The Brady's Game Guide and it gives off the same information as the GOTY guide, such as Bill being a soldier and John being saved from a hanging. It even gives off the same exact bios for the characters.
However, there's an oddity. According to what you said, the GOTY Guide states that Dutch is 56 in 1911. From what I read in the TBG Guide, Dutch is 45 in 1911. Similary, the GOTY Guide supposely states that Bill is 45 in 1911, while the TBG Guide states that Bill is 29 in 1911.
Now, Red Dead Redemption 2 obviously doesn't take TBG Guide ages as canon. But what interests me is that TBG Guide released in 2010, while the GOTY Guide released in 2011, which was around the time Red Dead Redemption 2 was being written. This might mean there are minor changes between these two guide books.
Do you know anybody on the wiki who has the GOTY Guide Book? It would be interesting to compare the differences between the GOTY Guide vs TBG Guide.
I didn't respond because weirdly I never got a notification that you ever posted on here. But anyways, I don't remember who on the wiki had it. I remember what must have been almost nine years ago now. That on this wiki, someone did have it. A lot of debate and discussion happened because of the release of the GOTY guidebook. I can't recall if it was on a blog post or talk page topic. I doubt any of this still exists on the site because so many users have come and gone since then. It's possible that it might though, maybe all of the discussion is buried somewhere on the site.
I recall the Timeline article found here was only created because of information from the GOTY guidebook. If you look at the dates on the history page of the Timeline article. It will correlate with the release of the GOTY guidebook. I gurantee it. Because that Timeline article never showed up on this wiki until after the GOTY guidebook released. Which is the reason that myself and namely the few other older users from that time on here cite it with Dutch's (and other characters) birthdate. Over the years it's become accepted that the information on the timeline article came from the GOTY guidebook specifcally.
As for the 2011 GOTY guidebook having newer information then the 2010 original one. I know for a fact it does. I know Rockstar added stuff in the guidebook that was included with the DLC. Especially Undead Nightmare. But as for changing or updating charcter info. Like birthdates or backstory. I have no idea. RDR2 was already being worked on at that time and because of that maybe Rockstar made some alterations to the canon. It's possible.
That's all I can really tell you. All of the old admins from the 2011 days who probably had the GOTY guidebook at one point are gone now. With the exception of Raziel Reaper. I think he's the only one left but I know he doesn't know about the GOTY guidebook either because I had a brief conversation with him about it when RDR2 came out. He doesn't have it.
Your best bet, get your hands on the GOTY guidebook yourself or find a transcribed copy online. I imagine someone somewhere would have transcribed it and posted it to the internet.
I looked through the revision history of the timeline page and something is..... off. The first time Dutch's 1855 birthdate is shown, it's labeled "8th March, 1855", which is already suspicious enough. But I looked and realized that that revision was dated June 8th, 2011. The Game Of The Year Guidebook wasn't released until October 10, 2011.......
Dutch "1855" birthdate might not be true. Interestingly, Ross' birthdate is listed as "1854", which we know is false because the GOTY Guide supposedly specifies he's 50 years old, which would make his birthdate 1861.
I also looked through the history of Bill's page. Some revisions list his birthdate as 1868 using the GOTY Guidebook. That doesn't simplify things at all.....
I think someone needs to get the GOTY Guidebook soon. I tried looking for a transcript on the internet, but I can't find one. I'll keep looking though.
Hi! I'm Jack, a bureaucrat on this wiki. I saw that you removed all the content from the Dutch van der Linde page. Followed by you adding it back in. In the process it gained you 2 achievements, none of which should be there since you weren't the one who added them in the first place. In turn you're abusing the wiki's system of what is considered an achievement and not. In this case the wiki achievements only checks if new images are added, not if they have already been added. Most of your edits prior to this have been very good, adding valuable information and cleaning up articles. I would like to see you continue to edit with quality. However achievement boosting is not allowed, so don't do that in the future. This is just a warning. Best regards JackiBackiBoy 09:26, August 3, 2018 (UTC)
I was going to bring up what happened to you earlier but decided against it seeing that I was able to undo the unintended error of my edit. To properly clarify, I was not "achievment boosting" nor was I even aware that what had happened, had even given me two achievements until I read what you just posted on my wall. I've been on wiki for ten years and I've never cared for the achievment system. When I made the intial edit to remove the useless trivia on Dutch's page. The edit became corrupted, why that would happen I have no idea but I suspect my poor internet connection. At the time I was editing, my wireless internet connection was cutting in and out. Whenever I tried to publish my edits, it warned me that my edit might have been corrupted and advised me to look over my edits again.
I did so and everything appeared to be fine when I previewed them in the editor. So I published them thinking nothing of it. Then of course when I looked at the actual page minutes later. All of the content was gone. It took several tries but I was able to publish the proper version of my edit with the rest of Dutch's page intact. Like I said, I considered talking to you and explaining what happened but because I was able to fix the problem in a matter of a few minutes. I didn't think it was worth discussing.
Anyway, that's what happened. I hope that clears things up for you.
Alright, I see. If you didn't read the title it was "alleged" achievement boosting. Thank you for the reply, I truly value good editors, editors like you. I see potential in you as an editor. Also, I planned to say this to you in the past but if you want, try to start using the source editor instead of using the visual editor. The visual editor oftentimes causes errors and does not provide support for more advanced and nit-picky edits. It might scare you off when you start using it, but I promise you, once you start getting used to edit in it you will learn wikitext (markup language for the wiki) which in turn allows you to dive into broader aspects of the wiki, for example templates and tables. Again, thank you! Best regards, JackiBackiBoy 20:27, August 3, 2018 (UTC)