Hey there Raziel. I want to discuss a couple things about John's daughter.
I found another mention of John's Daughter. In the mission "The Sport of Kings, and Liars", Nigel West Dickens asks John if he has any children. John replies that he has a son and he had a daughter, but she died. I would've edited it on the page, but unfortunately you guys blocked it. I understand though, I know that page had too much speculation and false informaiton on it.
Another thing is the dialogue between Abigail and John in the second game. John mentions that he hopes that "there will someone new to knit for you soon" which means that they plan on having another kid. I think that that should be something to note.
The page used to have the quote: "I had a daughter, but she died", is this the same dialogue that you refer to for the conversation between John and Nigel West Dickens?
For the second one, that could potentially be a key piece of information. Like Raziel said, if you could pinpoint when it is said, that would be excellent. More importantly, can you remember whether it was said in 1899 or 1907? Again, this is important, as it would specify roughly when she was alive.
If you find out anymore about these or are able to find the conversation between John and Abigail, please let us know!
The quote "I had a daughter, but she died." Comes from a conversation between John and Bonnie very early in the game. It sounds like he's getting these conversations confused. I just watched a video of the full mission "The Sport of Kings, and Liars" Not once does John mention his daughter to Dickens. I've personally beaten Red Dead Redemption four times now. As far as i'm aware. John only mentions his daughter to Bonnie and Luisa. Only twice in the entire game.
It's possible that RDR2 could contain vague dialogue related to John's daughter. But I think some proof is needed. Because I've beaten the entire story of RDR2 twice with both high and low honor and I don't remember a single reference or allusion to John's daughter anywhere, nor has anyone else found such a thing, to my knowledge.
I am not getting it confused. In Red Dead Redemption 1, there are hidden dialogues for when you fail missions. In "Sports of Kings, and Liars" John and Nigel have this conversation If you fail a couple of times before getting to Rathskeller Fork from what I remember:
Nigel: Do you have children, John?
John: Yeah, I have a son. I had a daughter, too, but she died. Do you?
Nigel: I'm sure I had many. If you forgive my forthrighteness, I have a prodigious seed. On account of West Dickens Elixre, that is. Virility is one of its many side effects.
John: I can't believe your still trying to sell that crap to ME. All your tonic does is send a man to the outhouse for 24 hours.
Nigel: Well, I had one son that I know of, but fate whisked away soon after his birth.
As for the second point, look up the video "Beecher's Hope random events Red Dead Redemption 2". Go to the mark at 7:17.
I’ve had a look at the second conversation on John's daughter, and John says: "Be nice to have someone new to knit for one day". In short, this says that he is planning to have another child, it doesn’t say that the Marston daughter exists or will exist, necessarily. In fact, it could even be a third child that he refers to when he says he wants another one, it may not necessarily be the Marston daughter.
For the conversation with Nigel West Dickens, could you find a video of it? If it is true, it would need to be referenced on the page, thus requiring a video to support it.
The thing that brings the Marston daughter into such...disarray lets say is, people like Javier and Bill are aware and reference John's CHILDREN, meaning she was born before he left the gang. She likely died before he left the gang as well.
Why she's not brought up once in RDR 2 tells me that Rockstar likely forgot she existed.
I don't think R* forgot about her. I just think that she didn't have a place in the story they were telling for the prequel. They wouldn't have that "someone knew to knit for you soon" dialogue if they forgot about her.
John mentions to Bonnie a gap of "years" between when he left the gang and his daughter's death, that’s the issue.
As for whether or not the aforementioned dialogue between John and Abigail which possibly references the Marston daughter should be on the page, I certainly don’t think it would be appropriate in the main section, due to there being a lack of any proper connection. However, it could be put in the trivia, as a point saying how it is the only time that she is potentially mentioned in RDR 2, but even that is pushing it. I am yet to make a final decision on it, and without input from other staff members, I cannot say what will happen.
In terms of the conversation with Dickens, I’m afraid I cannot simply take your word for it. That’s not to say that I don’t believe you, but such a conversation would require a reference on the page. Even if I play the mission for myself and discover it to be true, it would still need a reference.
So personally I looked at the video of John saying "Be nice to have someone new to knit for one day" and I think it's way too vague to mention in the actual article. John just comments on Abigail's knitting. It's not like they were talking about having another kid and then he said it. The topic of knitting for "someone new" is incidental at best. Even if he was indeed vaguely talking about having another kid, which I doubt. It can't specifically be about John's future daughter. Becuase she doesn't exist yet. And, putting a speculative mention in the trivia page is determiental as to why we locked the article in the first place. Which was to prevent anything other then concrete fact from being posted on the article.
As for the Nigel West Dickens dialogue, someone will have to confirm it.
Still, i'm in the opinion that should be noted. The page still notes Javier's use of the word "children" despite the context of Redemption 2 making it unlikely he knows about the daughter. I don't think that the "someone new" dialogue is a small, throwaway detail.
Don't get me wrong, I understand the caution. We don't want the page to tailspin into chaos with theories. But while the dialogue doesn't directly relate to John's daughter, it does it imply that John and Abigail are planning to have another kid. That's why it should be noted.
While the "children" quote is vague. It's still Javier specifically mentioning John Marston's children. Children obviously being plural, meaning Jack and John's daughter. And while it might be very likely non canon now thanks to RDR2 that Javier ever knew John's daugher, it was still canon then when the first game released. The sequel did not contradict that until nearly a decade later.
John saying "someone new" isn't nearly as direct as Javier saying John's "children". Really, nothing about the RDR2 conversation implies John is talking about a possible daugher. He could just as easily be talking about Uncle or Charles. Who just recently in the story showed up on the ranch. You could really come up with a plausible explanation for just about any interpretation of it. It's that vague and brief.
That's just my two cents anyways. The admins will come up with a conclusion themsleves.
I don't. From my understanding not many people have a copy of it. It was a limited release. Years and years ago I recall someone on the wiki had a copy of it and shared the info that was inside, then used it to construct the timeline page. Intrestingly enough, the book contained some backstory on Dutch's gang that would later be revealed in Red Dead Redemption 2. Dutch saving John from a hanging as a child, Bill being a soldier, all of that was actually in the GOTY book years before RDR2's release. So it's considered canon, despite being a OOG (out of game) source. That's all I know about it.