• Kerbert27
    Kerbert27 closed this thread because:
    Reason Stated by Wagwan
    21:22, September 27, 2019

    What do you mean Bill “changed his name”? Like, legally? Cause you’d need evidence of that. Otherwise, as he states in game, he took to calling himself Bill which makes that a nickname.

    He literally states in game his name is Marion and you can find discharge papers referring to him as Marion Williamson. I don’t know why you just straight up undid that edit but I’m starting to think you don’t like me pal

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    • Jack is never referred to as John Marston Jr and I have never found evidence that his name is anything other than Jack but we are comfortable assuming his name is John Marston Jr. based solely on the fact that Jack is a common nickname for John. No other evidence

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    • No, Bill's name is "Bill". Simple as that. It may have been Marion at some point, but he later changed it to "Bill" because he found it embarrassing. Those are his words (maybe a little paraphrased), not mine. If the discharge papers say "Marion", then that’s probably because he hadn’t yet changed it at the point where they were written.

      In addition, Bill is an outlaw - he can hardly change his name with the conventional, legal means, as that would mean contact with the government. Just because his outlaw status restricts his ability to do it in that particular way, it doesn’t invalidate his desired name change.

      As it happens, I agree with you on there being no evidence (as far as I know) for Jack's real name being "John Marston Jr.". I will look around for any evidence and ask on the talk page if anyone has any, but if not, "John Marston Jr." will be erased.

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    • As stated by Wag, Bill could change his name, even without going through legal means, as other people had done in history before modern times. For example, real-life outlaw Butch Cassidy changed his name from Robert Leroy Parker. 

      On what Bill states in the game, while he says his name had been Marion, he changed it to Bill himself. Really not something that should be overly stated, as it is already noted in the "Background" and "Trivia" sections on his page.

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    • Micah: “so what’s your real name then?” Bill: “Marion”

      Then Micah and Arthur proceed to call him Mary or Marianne. I really don’t understand this position. His legal name is Marion but he goes by Bill because he finds it embarrassing. I’m not disagreeing with that but paperwork literally refers to him as Marion Williamson its not that hard of a concept

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    • Butch Cassidy was a criminal alias of Robert Parker. He is still Robert Parker, we was Robert Parker when he committed his robberies, he just went by a non de Guerre if you will. You can call Marion Williamson Bill Williamson but his actual name is Marion. I genuinely feel like I’m arguing with brick walls

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    • Roosevelt, he doesn’t say his name was Marion, he says it is Marion. But he goes by bill. Simple

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    • When you go to Cassidy’s Wikipedia article it states his name is Robert Leroy Parker better known as Butch Cassidy. Same principle should apply to Bill. Unlike Jack, who was born in the woods to outlaws and likely had little legal paperwork regarding his info

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    • For all characters, the page introduces them with their most used, most recent or general name. In Bill’s case, it’s “Bill Williamson”, and so the page should introduce him as such.

      As User:H. Roosevelt pointed out, the fact that his name was once “Marion” is mentioned in both the “Background” and “Trivia” sections of the page, so it’s not as if isn’t covered on the page.

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    • Lenny Summers is referred to as Leonard “Lenny” Summers in his article. Introducing bill as Marion “Bill” Williamson is hardly a negative contribution or contrary to this wiki’s policy. Show me the policy that backs up your argument

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    • And stop with this rhetoric of “once” his name is still Marion he just goes by Bill. Roosevelt’s own example was contradicted by the Wikipedia article for Cassidy, which refers to him almost solely as Parker (cause that’s his name, he didn’t change it lol)

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    • I'll admit that my paraphrasing of the conversaton regarding his name was loose, if not, even inaccurate. But the point actually stands that he, while not legally, changed his name to Bill. The conversation in no way insinuated he was still accepting to being refered to as "Marion". Besides in-game newspapers even refering to him by this name rather than his original, added with the aforementioned fact that people have changed their names in the past without legal means, supports this.

      Also, the wikipedia article refers to Butch Cassidy as both names interchangeably, (hell, with Cassidy being used solely after the early life section) not his birth name almost solely, as you suggested. "Butch Cassidy" is even the page name, so that doesn't poke holes in that argument.

      With all that stated though, you're dead-set on the belief that everyone else is more stubborn than how you've continued to draw this out and it's clear there's no path to getting you to drop this, even with how it already has an appripriate place on his page.

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    • I’m not continuing to edit the article which you should consider good enough behaviour, as it’s been established I’m allowed to continue my discourse on these talk pages. To reiterate my point, I don’t think I’m being the stubborn one here. Bill’s name is clearly Marion, which he admits, and I don’t understand how Bill can be viewed as anything other than a nickname (again, he says “Bill comes from Williamson” when Micah assumes his name is William Williamson, I actually think this is a reference to the fact that this wiki referred to Bill as William Williamson for years, R* cheeky like that)

      Roosevelt, you still do not support your own point enough. Cassidy is clearly referred to as Robert Parker and when you say he is referred to as Cassidy it is after he had adopted the name. Marion Williamson was apparently not an outlaw until he was discharged from the army (not the cavalry as he claims) and began referring to himself as Bill. This doesn’t actually make his name Bill Williamson, and you tried to use a real life outlaw who is still legally referred to by his birth name, no matter how long he called himself Butch Cassidy. The Sundance Kid is still legally referred to as Harry Longabaugh, not by his pseudonym, so what’s the difference?

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    • You two are arguing the semantics of “changed his name” and “goes by” and I think if you really think on it (hard) he actually just goes by Bill and I’m absolutely flabbergasted at the suggestion he “changed his name” ???? Like how? (Compare that to his own admittance that Bill comes from his surname and he chose to go by it, it’s just a nickname)

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    • Please try to keep all your thoughts in one comment instead of spamming them. Thank you.

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    • Okay, you’ve intentionally missed the points laid out entirely: we’re all in agreement that legally his name is “Marion”. Now of course, when he became an outlaw, he took up the name “Bill” as he was embarrassed by it. Therefore, that is his name, by his own choice.

      As for Butch Cassidy, you purposelly misinterepeted what I stated in an attempt to support your own argument. I acknowledged the fact that his birth name was Robert Parker before he adopted Butch Cassidy as an outlaw (after the early life section), which you felt the need to restate as if I hadn’t. If anything, acting as if these points are nullified just because you said so or that whoever you’re trying to counter hadn’t stated them doesn’t help your own argument unless you intend to just draw the whole thing out.

      I get that in both instances you’re arguing the legality aspect but that really didn’t matter much for anyone who just changed their name without doing so legally, before then and in that time period. Especially with the lack of formal IDs, social security, etc. Simply put, he renamed himself Bill, so his name is Bill. In addition, nicknames are far different than adopted names.

      I really don’t think this is worth the obsession you have over it. Choosing the most mundane and simple things to start a dispute over and do so so condescending is not a good waste of anyone’s time.

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    • @Kerbert - here comes the chat moderator with the hard hitting issues. I’m editing via mobile and with the chat wall system my messages don’t spam the recent activity page so I don’t think it’s that much of an issue. Try addressing my points, or responding to me in the other thread where I replied to you.

      @Roosevelt - I don’t think I misrepresented your points, nor do I think I’m arguing the “legality” of it. I agree, it’s a mundane point, but I still think the intro to bills article should address him by his actual name, which he admits to having at a time you say he has changed his name, and then he can be referred to as Bill for the rest of the article, except it should mention his birth name in his bio, referring to his early life, don’t you think?

      And I don’t have an obsession mate. Your wording is clearly an attempt to paint me in a bad light. I make good edits and back them up, they are undone with no discussion. I open discussion and eat called harassing and petty. Grow some thicker skin lad

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    • Big talk coming from a man inching very close to getting banned. You spammed multiple replies in a row. The edit button exists. Use it. I would also watch your tone you have with all of us, although it may be too late for that since you have been harassing all of us with this disrespectful and immature attitude. I don't think Roosevelt is the one that needs to grow thicker skin if you're the one posting dick emotes and obsessing over the mundane topics in an attempt to get attention, but yet you get upset when someone says your obviously terrible idea is terrible? Absolutely shocking.

      And the reason I'm not addressing the main issue is because I am neither an editor nor a content mod.

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    • Kerbert, you are distracting from the issue at hand and your messages are pointless. First, I’ve already pointed out that my original ban seemed excessive, and expressed my reasons for thinking so. Raziel said he would look into it, but had been quiet for a week. So if I get banned again, it’s no skin off my back, cause I think you guys are abusing your powers.

      Second, I’m not trying to get attention. I’m making perfectly acceptable edits and when they get undone by power mad moderators I express my discontent in discussion threads which is perfectly within the rules. Your decision that my inability to use the edit button still doesn’t constitute as spam, because it doesn’t affect the activity page.

      Finally, either get out of this thread or provide your own reasoning why you think referring to Bill as Marion “Bill” Williamson in the opening sentence and in his early bio is a “terrible idea”

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    • I think all of us have had enough of this. Numerous aspects of your behaviour are not only in direct contradiction of what wiki policy allows for, but also completely unreasonable. We have already stated why the introductory section should not include “Marion”, yet you act like this hasn’t happened and accuse us of undoing your edits without any reason. Furthermore, you cannot call people “power mad” just because they have a different opinion to you; discussions about wiki matters are supposed to be about the situation at hand, so your accusations were not only hollow and untrue, but also irrelevant.

      You have been blocked for three weeks. After this time, you are welcome to continue your work on the wiki. However, this matter is closed, and any further correspondence from you on either this topic or the poker player situation will be ignored. Any more similar behaviour violations after your block ends will result in an indefinite block, so I think both of us should hope that this does not happen again.

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